Party seats Florida, Michigan delegations

The other comment he made today:

THis man shows integrity and prudence. The last thing that America needs is a fist raising female with hormon problems trying to deal with America's complex problems. Let's at least keep a male in charge.

I don't know if he's being paid to try make Obama supporters look stupid, but considering this was his first post every, and that he started today, this is a possibility.

Otherwise he's just ignorant. Horribly ignorant.

You sound like his preacher. He said today he disavows the church he has gone to for twenty years...please. What a man, he flows with the polls just like Clinton did. Our democratic party is self-destructing right before our eyes. I'll stay at home this fall.

Snackenburg ... I agree America does need a man ... but it sure isn't Obama.
We have a man who was willing to give his life for this country a man who knows how to protect us.
With Obama's experience and liberal views I don't know what will happen to us.
We owe John McCain our vote .. we already know what a hero he is.

In response to Arleen Webb...we don't owe any one our vote. We owe it to ourselves to choose the person we want without coercion. Many of us chose to join the military - many chose to be doctors, lawyers, accountants, teachers, or other professions. We owe none of them our allegiance because of their career choice.

In regards to the vote today for distribution of delegates. Once rules are broken, it is difficult to find a remedy. Many Floridians - as I - knew our votes would not count and many did not vote because of it. Going back to change the rules is a disservice to the many who did not vote.

Ike wouldn't have said anything his hands did the talking. Second Um Hilary came out better in the vote now she can focus on getting out of that little bit of debt she occurred that's the only reason People can relate to her right now and i doubt she really is in any debt.

Jivatman is right - the Hillary campaign has paid people to post stupid, sexist comments to make Obama look bad. She has set a record for breaking more ethical rules (and even many legal rules) of a campaign.

As a Michigan resident, I am FED UP with her lies and manipulation. Nobody was trying to "seal" or not count our votes. Our state party OPTED OUT of the primaries process by moving the primary forward. Everybody knew this up front. They even wrote us a letter saying they are opting out. Now she has them complaining that their votes aren't counted?

She is no role model for young women. Is this a contest to see if a woman can be as devious and deceptive as Rove or Bush? If there NOTHING she won't lie about?

There are plenty of strong, powerful, progressive women out there that would make much better candidates and role models. I pray Obama chooses one of them for his cabinet, or even VP.

Snackenburg: In the end, Tina got the best of Ike. She soared way over his loser head.
Is Obama your idea of a man? He casts aside his preacher like dirt after using his well-positioned church for political expediency during 20 long years. Obama will cast us all aside like garbage for his own political ends. Can't you see how he is laughing at us inside? If Dems say Obama, then I say MCCAIN!

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa...

Anyone else notice this? Arleen, Juni, RealTalk, Marjie, Waterdog...

Every single on of them. Today is their first day on the Vine...

"As Ike Turner said, "Womans be thinkin too much.". Vote for Obama. America needs a man." -P. Snackenburg

So you think America needs a man? I am a male Democrat, and am a huge supporter of Hilary Clinton. Does that mean that I have some sort of bias against men and that I deserve some sort of punishment? No, I think not. It means that I am an objective person who considers all sides of the issues at hand and votes for a candidate based on their abilities and political experience, not on an assinine factor like race or gender.

To be frank, Americans are once again proving their ignorance by muddying up the campaign with the obvious differences that exist among the Democratic candidates of the 2008 election and their WASP counterparts that have been puppeteering the American show for over 200 years. And if I were to stoop to the level of these ignorant Americans, then I might argue that it is only men who have held the position of ultimate responsibility, and look at how advanced our country is now (please note the sarcasm of the latter part of that statement).

Every war in the history of America has been fought because a group of men were incapable of agreeing with each other. From the Korean War to the Persian Gulf, and Vietnam to Iraq, the Presidents of the United States, all of them men, have proven that diplomacy is always discarded when war is a viable option. Is this the kind of system we want to have in place? One in which the "democracy" on which we pride ourselves and the foundation of a once great nation is nothing but an overinflated aristocracy? War is an inherently undemocratic process. It is traditionally fought for economic or idealistic purposes, and when war is fought for beliefs, there is traditionally profit involved. America's policy on war is a perversion of democracy, a system in which profiteering bureaucrats subsist on self-serving motives and hidden political agendas. And the blame for the corruption of a once great democracy, if outdated stereotypes are now the norm, lies squarely at the feet of men.

If I have a purpose, then it is this: do not judge based on preconceived notions of a group of people or on improperly formulated opinoins. In politics, look at the candidates' leadership qualities, not thier gender. Focus on how they are connected with the common citizen. Determine where they stand on the issues and how they might improve the quality of life for all. And above all, listen, really listen, to what the candidates are trying to say. Remember that 'change' by itself is not a defined goal; it is an ideal, which makes it impractical and unrealistic in modern politics. The candidate who comprehends the individual changes that need to be made and understands how to implement necessary reform deserves our support, and that is why Hilary Clinton is my choice to fill the position of 44th President of the United States of America.

Every single on of them. Today is their first day on the Vine...

That's usually an indication that an article or seed is being featured somewhere on MSNBC.com. The increased exposure draws in readers of MSNBC who aren't normal commenters. Nothing to worry about, it's just something that happens now that Newsvine is getting more exposure on a major news site.

Yeah, but a couple of these new users have similar patterns of logic and language as some other more active users who have a - shall we say "persistent" - line of argument.

Yesterday I asked Calvin if he has a system to detect sockpuppets (two IDs using the same computer).

Bondibox -- Calvin's got reporting capabilities that would make your toes curl.

In response, however, to one of the comments above: You sound like his preacher. He said today he disavows the church he has gone to for twenty years...please. What a man, he flows with the polls just like Clinton did.

Why is this bad?

We live in a Representative Democracy people. We're supposed to be electing people to represent us. If a politician "flows with the polls" isn't that.... the point? Isn't that... doing what the American people want him to do?

Why would we want to discourage that? Or do we really think that little of our own wisdom as an electorate? If you think that little of a government by the people I'd suggest abstaining in November.

I am embarrassed for the vocal opposition during the closing moments of the meeting.

I have to agree. Neither Ickes with his last comments nor the Clinton supporters trying to shout down the meeting represented their candidate well today.

This Democratic solution was picked originally by the GOP before the primaries even occurred. It took them how long to finally decide this? Another Democratic party fiasco.

Welcome to Newsvine today, bob. Glad to see rather presumptuous and illogical arguments from such a new member.

The only thing you have to blame is your state. They agreed to abide by the DNC rules, and then knowingly violated them. You're lucky they're even seating half of them.

Then again, it would'nt be a presidential election without Florida being a massive FUBAR and embarrassing the entire country and it's electoral process, now would it?

To Bob G. So what if your vote only counts 1/2. The slaves were considered as 3/5ths.Will this carry over to the General in November? You Dems cannot even figure out the nomination process. I can't wait until you try the economy. Oh thats right. Since you took over Congress in '07 oil and gas prices have gone crazy. Thanks!!!

You're right Apauln, gas was dirt cheap before '07. Oh, wait...

Maroon.

Seriously.

Bob, you might want to note that the Republican also punished Florida and Micigan by doing the exact same thing! So it's really not the Democrats that can't run an election... it's Florida and Michigan.

But hey, if you want to blame the Democrats for the decisions of your state legislature please feel free. I'd imagine the party counts more on reality based votes anyway.

The slaves were considered as 3/5ths.Will this carry over to the General in November?

What color is the sky on your planet?

The slaves? Really? Jesus H. Juggling Christ on a Pogo-Stick.

Carry over to November. Humph. I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

Honestly I understand where your coming from but his name wasn't even on the ballots serves as a double slap for that cause consider the Q? the Glaring Question of what took them so long to make them so late? There vote was counted fairly

He who does not campaign does not deserve ANY delegates.

So you're saying that neither delegation should've been seated? Because neither one of them campaigned in either state, seeing as they both agreed to DNC rules prior to those elections. Just because Clinton changed her mind (conveniently when MI and FL seemed to be her last hope) doesn't mean she broke the rules beforehand.

She didn't withdraw her name from the Michigan ballot. She had pledged to do so.

Please click "reply" to reply to another poster's comment.

Bush did it for 8 years you wasn't complain then now where ya?

Maybe you can explain how this was in contravention of the rules. The rules committee was tasked with imposing the penalty, and the rules committee was tasked with listening to any appeals and reconsidering their prior decision. All of this happened within the rules of the party.

I hear what you're saying, but consider the context. The entire superdelegate concept is "closed door discussion". The process of electing a party nominee is NOT one in the same with the process of electing a president. The DNC process is determined by the charter and bylaws of the DNC. It has been neither worse nor better this year than in years past. Now, at this point, in this election year, the overriding objective for democrats must be to remove the republicans from office.

Michigan and Florida KNEW the rules in December. Braking the rules and now demanding their votes are counted does NOT fit with the Democratic process!

DNC set the rules - no one else. Not Obama, not Clinton, but the party leadership. That same leadership has now been pressured to ignore the consequences they clearly outlined! And Clinton supporters are - hm, well, like Clinton... Breaking the rules, and then trying to get his way anyway...

Yea he's fair, member of the Communist party in college, member of a racist church for twenty years, just today finally had to disavow his membership. No he's not fair, he is the most liberal member of the senate with only one term experience. I dont want that as my president. He's no longer a member at his church, because running for President is more important. Fine man. All the democratic party wants this years is for a black man to run for president, because John Dean has mandated that it be done. I support Hillary, but if they pushed her out as it looks like today, I wont vote at all.

The qualities of 'being fair' and 'being liberal' are not mutually exclusive.

To Richard in 11.1:

She hasn't been pushed out. The rules committee bent the rules by even awarding the delegates.

Hillary and her campaign lost this race. They planned poorly because they were too confident early on. She spent all of her money by Super Tuesday and felt the caucus states were a waste of time. That is her own fault.

To blame it on anyone else is irrational and scapegoating. It's time to face reality and accept the truth. She has lost.

member of a racist church for twenty years, just today finally had to disavow his membership.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Well I don't think there's any need to sit the election out, I'll just vote for McCain instead. At least the Republican party counts its own votes.

I agree. So now the democratic party rules committee, which by the way are made up of mostly democratic leadership in the senate and house, appointed by self made god, John Dean. Can tell the states, when to vote and how? They might as well just say this state will vote for X candidate and this state will vote for that X candidate. What has this party come to? I will not vote this fall if Hillary gets pushed out of this process as it looks like she will.

Were you previously going to vote for a democratic nominee? If that is indeed the case, please consider the consequences of voting republican. If you one time agreed with a current democratic candidate, please review Clinton's and Obama's policies: You will find they are very similar. While neither Clinton nor Obama was my original choice, I have looked at their positions and determined I fully support one and will happily live with the other. If you were going to vote democratic-how is it you could vote instead for the republican platform which is almost diametrically opposed? I don't understand that kind of thinking. The reason this scares me is that I genuinely fear for the future of this country and (especially) my children. So, I ask you to review your position-if, indeed, you were once going to vote democrat.

I hope all of you who are saying "rules are rules and are not to be broken" are supporting the border fence and strict enforcement of our immigration laws. Anything else would be hypocritical.

we still have a democratic Candidate who was the front runner in the 1st place before this issue was even pushed by Clinton. With all fairness to her I would have also if i were closer in votes but she is no better off then as she is now. the rules were bent but not broken she was well within her rights to push for it otherwise it wouldn't have be considered. I just think people should stop crying about systems. No system created by humans are perfect, I mean hey Bush was in office for how long again? we ain't gonna see another republican most defiantly one My father cant even tell me who he is..

to Youareprobablywrong,

The Republican party made the same decision for Michigan and Florida. They only awarded half of each of the states delegates. Be sure you are accurate before you make an accusation.

I am a democratic but I will not vote this fall if Hillary is pushed out of this process as it looks like she will. If states are told how to vote, when to vote, and then their party is able to tell them what votes are counted, whats up with that. I will not vote this fall.

voters who had no choice but to vote on the date party officials decided

Are you trying to say that there was no discussion or media coverage within these two states prior to them holding their primaries too early, therefore voters were not given the opportunity to write to their elected officials and voice their dismay? Silly. You better believe that if the Dems in CA decided to do what MI and FL Dems did, I'd be sending an angry e-mail every hour to protect my vote, BEFORE the primary.

Rich, being a member of the party means you must abide by party rules, which includes when and where to vote. If the a state breaks the rules, who else but the DNC should decide how to punish them? If left to the people, there would be a re-vote. But that's not financially possible anyway.

I think your point that individuals have little meaningful input into the political process and outcome is correct. We do however get to live with the consequences. Lucky us.

Our leaders don't care about what we as voters think, all they want to to achieve their own agenda.

I hope I'm wrong also, but Hillary seems in this for Hillary. I'm not sure what it is but concession doesn't seem to be in the cards for her. Maybe it's a entitlement thing. Who knows but I agree with your perspective, if she goes this route, John "Bush" McCain will be our next President.

Amen to that.

I agree. We need to have the popular vote only. The Electoral College has never made any sense to me, and it is not fair. Also, the delegate thing doesn't make any sense either.
Obama would have won anyway with a popular vote for the Democratic Nominee- he has won the most states; he has blown Hillary away!

What math do you use? Hillary has far less then half the votes.

His own math. Some people don't understand that Obama has the popular vote.

Hillary will stop at nothing to prevent Obama from being the nominee or ever have the chance at being elected in November. She will even make up false results or cherry pick and lie to her supporters to accomplish anything.

That certainly shows a great amount of difference from this current administration doesn't it? I was an early supporter of hers, but now I am glad I've seen her true colors. Obama has earned my vote.

Hillary will / has taken the lead in the popular vote and is the only candidate from all the research,

Did you read the rules? It is the delegate count that matters.

Do the rules suck? Yes. Do we have to follow them? Yes.

Also, recent polling shows Obama beating McCain in a lot of the battle ground states that Hillary claims she is the only "viable candidate" in.

Hillary will / has taken the lead in the popular vote and is the only candidate from all the research,

Research which doesn't count caucus votes, yet counts a state that Obama wasn't a candidate in.

I think its been media spin. I heard Pat Buchanan say that in an interview with Greg; "Hillary has the popular vote among white, working class voters." At the same time, he conveniently forgot to mention that Hillary and Barack get voter support from ALL nationalities. Collectively, only one candidate gets the popular vote; no matter who is voting. I beleive Hillary did get ahead in the popular vote towards the beginning of the primaries but, Obama eventually had taken the lead in all categories around super Tuesday. It's all media spin and, people are grabbing only part of the comment and not realizing that the media may be referring to 'group specifics' rather than the overall vote.

The same can be said for Barack Obama; he has the popular among black, working class voters; however, it would probably come with additional comments such as, "he did this by playing the race card."

In my opinion, voters will vote the way they feel about a candidate. It should not by categorized in such a manner that it creates confusion or chaos in the process.

I totally agree with you. If you say that there are certain rules and then those rules are broken, where are the consequences? What inferential message does this send to our children? Some rules can be followed and others, well, maybe/maybe not. I appreciate everyone having a say in the democratic primary process, but let's not be fooled. The democratic voters of Michigan and Florida should be angry with their party leaders for not following the rules and potentially negating their voting voice. But if the rules are broken, there should be consequences - the consequences that were originally set out and not some watered down compromised version. I want to stay unbiased, but I find it difficult to accept that if Candidate Clinton was leading in the votes, there would be such a divisive posture as we are now seeing.

See my post above. I hope both of you support strict enforcement of our immigration laws.

It is possible to be in opposition to a law without breaking it. Immigration law, however faulty is, in fact law. The DNC rules, however faulty, are the rules regulating the party process. One can disagree with and work to change regulations and laws, but disagreement alone does not necessarily lead to disregarding either.

Obama is too late. Bush has already gotten us into wwIII

I find your viewpoint a little extreme.

Actually, the polls show Obama beating McCain. Take a chill pill- relax.

Obviously Obama hates white people.

Like his mom, grand parents and half of himself.

Get off of the racist kick.

I am totally curious; which polls are you viewing? I would like to see this. Can you advise where I can find this. I typically view the National Polls via msnbc. When I count up the numbers, I am coming up with the majority of states lead by Obama between Obama and McCain.